Entry for December 31, 2007

Heart for the Lost: A true dialogue between a Mormon and a Christian

I just couldn't resist. This is an old post, granted.

This is taken from "On the Road with Joseph Smith" by Richard Lyman Bushman

This is taken from "On the Road with Joseph Smith" by Richard Lyman Bushman, page 15 - 16. An excerpt from a letter.

Quote:

I wish I could strike a responsive chord in Christians like you. Mormons wonder why all Christians don't understand that we believe in the Book of Mormon on the basis of a spiritual witness. It is very hard for a Mormon to believe that Christians accept the bible because of the scholarly evidence confirming the historical accuracy of the work. Surely there are uneducated believers whose convictions are not rooted in academic knowledge. Isn't there some kind of human, existential truth that resonates with one's desires for goodness and divinity? And isn't that ultimately why we read the bible as a devotional work? We don't have to read the latest issues of the journals to find out if the book is still true. We stick with it because we find God in its pages--or inspiration, or comfort, or scope. That is what religion is about in my opinion, and it is why I believe in the Book of Mormon. I can't really evaluate all the scholarship all the time; while I am waiting for it to settle out, I have to go on living. I need some good to hold on to and lift me up day by day. The Book of Mormon inspires me, and so I hold on. Reason is too frail to base a life on. You can be whipped about by all the authorities with no genuine basis for deciding for yourself. I think it is far better to go where goodness lies. I keep thinking other Christians are in a similar position, but they don't agree. The keep insisting their beliefs are based on reason and evidence. I can't buy that--the resurrection as rational fact? And so I am frankly as perplexed about Christian belief as you are about Mormons. Educated Christians claim to base their belief on reason when I thought faith was the teaching of the scriptures. You hear the Good Shepherd’s voice, and you follow it. I guess we could go on and on. I hope I am telling you the truth about myself. The fact is I am a believer and I can't help myself. I couldn't possibly give it up; it is too delicious.

Mormanity on stupidity.

http://mormanity.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-can-anyone-be-so-stupid.html

"How Can Anyone Be So Stupid?"

I get a lot of emails from strangers that begin with friendly greetings like, "How can anyone be so stupid as to believe in Mormonism?" These cheerful notes then go on to share important information about the errors of modern Church leaders ("the Church is building a mall!"), past Church leaders ("Joseph Smith was a womanizer"), objectionable doctrines ("you believe that Adam is God"), disasters of Church history (the Kirtland bank disaster and Mountain Meadows are favorites here), and other present or past problems in the Church ("you're a bunch of racists!"). And then we wrap up with a gentle reminder about how utterly stupid I must be. After all, how can anyone look at this litany of problems and possibly remain LDS? (Sometimes the writer states that they were once LDS and have now left -- the email from alleged ex-Mormons tends to be the nastiest.) It is beyond reason and a sign of monstrous idiocy that any human being could belong to such a Church. Sometimes these helpful souls are broadminded enough to recognize that there may be alternate explanations for my religious faith. Maybe it's not just stupidity - perhaps I am so ignorant and blind that I've never heard the facts they have shared, or else I'm a vile hypocrite knowingly leading souls astray. But utter stupidity is generally the normal assumption.

At that point, there is often a call to wake up, repent, and follow the only logical path, the only path that sane, non-stupid human beings could possibly accept, which happens to be the path chosen by the kind exhorter who has chosen to wake me from my delusion. That path varies, ranging from atheism, agnosticism, Protestantism, Catholicism, Amwayism, etc. (Notably, I don't think I've ever had this kind of treatment from Jews, who I have found to be among the most non-critical and accepting people on the planet.)

The attitudes of these correspondents represent classical anti-Mormonism. It is one thing to disagree with us, but to insult and revile, assuming that no intelligent person could possibly accept another belief system, displays true bigotry. This kind of bigotry is the fuel behind hate and many associated evils. But the outreach effort to shake me from my stupidity is, of course, always conducted in "love." It's not the gushing, sentimental kind of love that we see expressed between, say, hockey players of opposing teams during an intense match, or by fans of opposing World Cup soccer teams after a few beers and an ugly match, but a tougher love, sort of a bittersweet love but without the sweet, perhaps even a Ramboesque love, a love that requires body armor to appreciate.

A person lacks the refining benefits of basic education, in my opinion, if he or she cannot recognize that good and intelligent people can hold a wide variety of opinions and beliefs that may be sharply discordant with one's own views. Those other beliefs may seem illogical and absurd from our perspective, and we may be convinced that they are wrong, yet there is a need to recognize that those other beliefs may be intellectually or spiritually satisfying to their adherents, and may have value and richness that we do not appreciate. A Muslim believer may find Christianity to be hopelessly polytheistic with its belief in three gods - in spite of the seemingly desperate word-smithing attempts to define the three persons as one one Being or one Godhead, yet many Muslim believers I know kindly accept that Christians find great value, comfort, and even beauty in our beliefs, and recognize that one can be intelligent, educated, and Christian at the same time. (Of course, if we'd learn a little Arabic and dig into the majesty of the Koran, maybe we'd become even more intelligent. . . .)

Our critics seem to think that a serious apparent mistake from a Church leader should convince me to abandon my faith. My appreciation of LDS teachings and practices is not based on the assumption that every act and statement of Church leaders has been infallibly guided by God. If Joseph Smith made huge mistakes, if a Stake President made huge mistakes, if modern General Authorities make poor decisions on some matters, if hundreds of Mormons have had various personal problems, and if some popular LDS doctrines today turn out to be incomplete and in need of future correction, one does not have to be a moron to remain LDS. My faith is not based on the absurd notion that Church leaders are infallible or even that they are nearly always right. It is not based on an error-free Book of Mormon, or on the selection of construction projects that I agree with. I'm not a Mormon because I think we have perfect leaders or even mostly right leaders. My religious faith does not depend on whether I like polygamy or think Joseph Smith implemented it in the right way. It does not depend on what went wrong and who was to blame for the Kirtland Bank failure or the other problems the Church has faced.

My testimony is based on the divinity of Jesus Christ as expressed in the Bible and in the powerful, Christ-centered, divine record we have in the Book of Mormon. Having found for myself that the Book of Mormon is true, and since that first discovery, having repeatedly found it to be majestic scripture beyond anything that a man could have fabricated - especially Joseph Smith in 1830, then I must conclude that there is something divine that happened with Joseph Smith. Indeed, in addition to my experiences with the Book of Mormon, my experiences with the fruits of the Restoration - the priesthood, the Temple, the teachings of the Church and the blessings and joy of the living the Restored Gospel - further convince me there is a divine source of these things, pointing to the reality of the Restoration. And on top of all that, there is a remarkable intellectual and spiritual satisfaction that comes from the theology and doctrines of the Church. Understanding the justice of God (the whole issue of theodicy), especially as expressed through the work of preaching of the Gospel to the dead and making the blessings of the Gospel available to all the world from all generations who are willing to accept it, is remarkably beautiful intellectually. Understanding the nature of God and Jesus Christ as taught in the Restored Gospel resolves centuries of miasma and brings clarity and beauty to our view. Understanding the nature of mankind and the free agency that we have, all intricately tied to knowledge of our premortal existence as spirit children of our Heavenly Father, helps resolve some of the most troubling and confused issues of modern Christianity (see When Souls Had Wings: What the Western Tradition Has to teach Us About Pre-Existence by Terryl Givens). And then there is the intellectual satisfaction of seeing that the LDS doctrines that other Christians use to condemn us as somehow being "non-Christian" actually are much more at home in the earliest days of Christianity than in the modern era, providing intellectual satisfaction about the reality of this remarkable process we are in, the process of Restoration of ancient truth. That process is not over and we still have a lot to learn, including from other religions and from science and other sources, for we do not have all truth and certainly do not have a monopoly on what truth there is on this diverse planet. In fact, we understand that that there was much truth anciently that has been handed down, sometimes distorted and corrupted, sometimes preserved, and knowing this, we can look upon other religious viewpoints not with the attitude of "How can anyone be so stupid?" but perhaps even with the attitude of "How can we be less stupid by learning from you?"

There is so much of value in the beliefs of others. We may disagree with much, but we can recognize that they, too, find value and beauty in what they have, and that if take of our own blinders, we may find gems of wisdom that can help us grow as well.

That's just my opinion, of course. But I can't see how anyone could be so stupid as to disagree with it.

More wisdom from Kirby

This is too good to pass up.

Kirby: No one is fair when it comes to religion
Robert Kirby
Tribune columnist
Article Last Updated: 12/14/2007 07:10:42 PM MST


During a recent interview, presidential candidate Mike Huckabee (R-Baptist) talked about fellow candidate Mitt Romney (R-Mormon).
Huckabee posed the question: "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
The question was perceived by some as an opportunity to hold an element of Mormon theology up for ridicule. As a Mormon, I wasn't bothered because, well, it's true.
It gets weirder. Not only is Satan our brother as well, he looks exactly like KSL meteorologist Kevin Eubank, only redder.
OK, I made that part up. But Mormons do believe a lot of things that seem pretty strange, if not downright crazy.
So do you.
Imagine that the average presidential candidate rings your doorbell tomorrow. Male, affluent and not visibly deranged, the candidate offers some really cool ideas about running the country. He wants your vote.
Before you can answer, the candidate casually mentions that the driving force in his life is a profound belief in a cosmic walrus that sets the world spinning each new day with the force of its benevolent flatulence.
As the average American voter (Christian), your response would be laughter followed by incredulity. In parts of the country, you might even be legally entitled to assault the candidate.
After all, the real god is a shape-shifting entity, born of a virgin, who cured blindness with spit and busted out of his tomb after being lynched - a god you periodically honor by ritualistically eating him so that he won't kill you when he comes back.
Well, that wasn't really fair, was it? I hope not. Since when did religious belief ever have anything to do with fair?
Muslim, Pagan, Christian, Jew, Buddhist - one of the great ironies of all spiritual belief is that cold, brutal logic should be applied to every version but yours.
If you're Hindu, for example, you might find the idea of Christian communion ludicrous. Why would anyone even pretend to eat a god? Conversely, Christians find the notion of God having the head of an elephant completely ridiculous. Extra arms? Ha! We don't even want to talk about one with multiple sex organs.
What's going on here isn't real logic. It's not even insight. It's simply comparing your beliefs against those of others and egotistically concluding that you are the only one who can't be dismissed as an idiot.
Incidentally, this is a human condition that affects secularists as well. The absence of religion doesn't make people moral anymore than its presence guarantees morality.
Is religious belief bad? It damn sure can be. People are certainly bad when they become contemptuous of others, and religion far too often provides us with the place to do just that.

Triumph of the Will

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcFuHGHfYwE

Finally, I found "triumph of the will". Great for historical perspective. Some real sicko's though in the comment section.

A prophesy for the apostasy

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=29411&st=0

A good interp of Matt 16 and the possible meaning of leaven

Matthew 13:33
(33) Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


Luke 13:21
(21) It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.



Physically, leaven is a lump of old dough in a high state of fermentation, or a substance that causes dough to rise (yeast). A natural reason for leaven's negative symbolism is the idea that fermentation implies a process of corruption. In the Old Testament, it is generally symbolic of sin and evil. In every instance that leaven appears in the Bible, it represents evil; the only exception, some say, is Jesus' use of leaven in this parable. Knowing its Old Testament significance, however, He would have used the symbol in the same way.

While some commentaries interpret this parable as depicting the spreading influence of the gospel, such explanations go against Jesus' use of this symbol. He uses it to refer to the evil doctrine of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and Herod (Matthew 16:6-12; Mark 8:15), and this could easily apply to later corruptions of doctrine by those who place more importance on the traditions of men than on the Word of God.

Paul uses leavening as a type of sin in its development (I Corinthians 5:6-. His reference to Christ's sinless sacrifice, and his statement that believers, as such, are unleavened shows the typical significance of leaven. In Galatians 5:7-9, its diffusive quality describes the harmful effects of false doctrine. He calls leaven a persuasion, something that exerts a powerful and moving influence, that hinders people from obeying the truth. Such a thing, he declares, is not from Him who calls us.

In the parable, the leaven alone is not what relates to the Kingdom, but the entire concept in the parable, the progress of the church in history. The leaven is hidden in the meal, representing the way Satan subtly strikes against the truth. Leaven is symbolic of things that disintegrate, break up, and corrupt. The leaven of the Pharisees was hypocritical formality. That of the Sadducees was skepticism. Herod's was of shameful self-indulgence in worldly desires. The leaven of those who have distorted doctrine down through the ages has been greed, pride, control, and worldly desires.

Whenever we find the symbol of a woman in the Bible, she represents a system of beliefs and practices that influence other people. Nations or political groups and religions or churches have specific unique beliefs. All human-based belief systems go contrary to God because "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Romans 8:7). What the woman does and how she acts determines what belief system she is representing.

The woman in the parable takes leaven and hides it in the meal (Matthew 13:33). Hid is translated from the Greek word enkrupto, from which comes the English word "encrypt." The root word, krupto, means "to conceal" or "to keep secret." Hence, this woman is surreptitiously placing the leaven of false doctrine in the church. She is an opponent of Christ and infuses His church with corrupting ideas. Elsewhere she is called "Wickedness" (Zechariah 5:7-, "Jezebel" (Revelation 2:20), and the "great harlot" (Revelation 17:1).

Three measures of meal would be a huge amount even for a large family-perhaps as much as is needed to make about a dozen loaves of bread. More importantly, most of the Jews listening to Jesus would have recognized the three measures of meal (an ephah) as the meal or grain offering (Leviticus 2). This offering was never allowed to contain leaven (Leviticus 2:5). The meal offering represents the offerer's service and loyalty to his fellow man and is typified in how Jesus Christ offered Himself in service to mankind (Matthew 20:25-28). It portrays the second great commandment of Matthew 22:36-39: love of our fellow human beings. Thus, the three measures of meal represent love, service, and loyalty to others, specifically our brethren in the church.

Jesus warns in this parable that false doctrines would be infused by stealth into the church, and these evil beliefs would corrupt, erode, and destroy relationships. If the false doctrines are allowed to grow, affection and loving concern in service to one another are thwarted. The phrase "till all was leavened" is a sobering indication that the church would be plagued by insensitive, uncaring, self-absorbed, self-centered attitudes that would spread through the church just as leaven spreads through bread dough. The apostle Paul tells us "through love serve one another" (Galatians 5:13), an antidote to the woman's devious subterfuge.

Musings on catholic.com and boards in general

I've spent some time on catholic.com in the past several days. I have taken away quite a few things.

1) It is generally deplorable in how we treat each other. We can all use some lessons in treating each other nicely. I've always known this but I have always overlooked it because I've learned so much on the net.

2) We need to realize that our religion is based on the miraculous and outrageous. I find it odd that, and using the catholic board as an example, a religion that believes in bread and wine changing into the literal body of Christ is stupified to consider that some believe that Christ might have been married. Conversely from my LDS point of view of belief in angels, prophets and revelation are confounded by transubstantiation.

Face it, we all believe in things that are unbelievable.

3) I am at odds at how we wish each other ill. I've seen this on many boards. I think some seriously hate each other. We constantly misrepresent what each other believes, or out of ignorance, state things that others might believe. For example, my religion was at one time populated by speculators of the extreme sort. They went far and wide on what is possible. While I find it entertaining and in many ways, enlightening, I don't find it particularly binding upon me. Many speculated on what theosis might actually mean. They were quite explicit and many times quite thought provolking on there logical progression. But that doesn't mean that I have to believe it. I don't feel bound by it anymore than a catholic feels bound by everything in the ECF.

4) I realize that I have very liberal ideas, many of which I have expressed here but many I've held back. Sometimes I wish I wasn't so restrained but I don't think many would tolerate some of the places I go. From what I've expressed at work with some co-workers, I feel quite out of place among most christians. I do feel comfortable among most LDS because I don't feel restrained in exploring what I will. I find it odd that most view mormons as being mind-numbed robots always toting the party line. However, I have encountered them, I just don't "hang" with them. Probably another reason I clash with "Utah culture". Its an oxymoron, I know but I don't know other words to express it. Where other people find the religion restraining, I find amazing freedom. I don't think my views are that uncommon among my peers.

5) We spend entirely too much time judging each other. If someone holds different beliefs, we label them harshly. I've seen catholics eat their own on those boards. I really understand SH's problems in that regard. I think every religion does it. It is sad really. I try not to take odds with other mormons that don't go where I go. My wife holds little to no interest in my religious explorations. I hope I don't look down at her because of it. I certainly try not to look down at my other non-informed mormon friends. Lord knows everyone shouldn't think like me.

More as I think of them.

Entry for September 08, 2007

Took a vacation to the Twin Cities. Found a couple of interesting things. First, the bluffs down by La Cross, WI were falling. Lots of mudslides. http://www.lacrossetribune.com/shared-content/story_tools/slideshow/?type=sli...

While touring the Mill Tower downtown, I looked over and saw the bridge collapse of 35W. I'll post my unspectacular photos on my photostream when I get back home. Here's some good pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/84853337@N00/sets/72157601198372931/ If you do a search on flickr for "bridge collapse" you'll get lots of hits. Minneapolis has a lot of people already taking pics. You might also review this video and think what the MDOT employee was thinking at the time. http://www.dot.state.mn.us/i35wbridge/video/collapse2mins.wmv

Sophie Scholl - White Rose

I watched a movie called "Sophie Scholl" yesterday. If you don't know who that is, she was an anti-nazi propagandist. She was involved with the White Rose. It was really an incredible story. I've known about her and her brother for many years but this was the first dramatization I've seen of her life.

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/sophie.html

One of their letters was eventually picked up and dropped by England upon Germany.

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/leafsixeng.html

Fellow Fighters in the Resistance!
*
Shaken and broken, our people behold the loss of the men of Stalingrad. Three hundred and thirty thousand German men have been senselessly and irresponsibly driven to death and destruction by the inspired strategy of our World War I Private First Class. Fuhrer, we thank you!
*
The German people are in ferment. Will we continue to entrust the fate of our armies to a dilettante? Do we want to sacrifice the rest of German youth to the base ambitions of a Party clique? No, never! The day of reckoning has come - the reckoning of German youth with the most abominable tyrant our people have ever been forced to endure. In the name of German youth we demand restitution by Adolf Hitler's state of our personal freedom, the most precious treasure we have, out of which he has swindled us in the most miserable way.
*
We grew up in a state in which all free expression of opinion is unscrupulously suppressed. The Hitler Youth, the SA, the SS have tried to drug us, to revolutionize us, to regiment us in the most promising young years of our lives. "Philosophical training" is the name given to the despicable method by which our budding intellectual development is muffled in a fog of empty phrases. A system of selection of leaders at once unimaginably devilish and narrow-minded trains up its future party bigwigs in the "Castles of the Knightly Order" to become Godless, impudent, and conscienceless exploiters and executioners - blind, stupid hangers-on of the Fuhrer. We "Intellectual Workers" are the ones who should put obstacles in the path of this caste of overlords. Soldiers at the front are regimented like schoolboys by student leaders and trainees for the post of Gauleiter, and the lewd jokes of the Gauleiters insult the honor of the women students. German women students at the university in Munich have given a dignified reply to the besmirching of their honor, and German students have defended the women in the universities and have stood firm.... That is a beginning of the struggle for our free self-determination - without which intellectual and spiritual values cannot be created. We thank the brave comrades, both men and women, who have set us brilliant examples.
*
For us there is but one slogan: fight against the party! Get out of the party organization, which are used to keep our mouths sealed and hold us in political bondage! Get out of the lecture rooms of the SS corporals and sergeants and the party bootlickers! We want genuine learning and real freedom of opinion. No threat can terrorize us, not even the shutting down of the institutions of higher learning. This is the struggle of each and every one of us for our future, our freedom, and our honor under a regime conscious of its moral responsibility.
*
Freedom and honor! For ten long years Hitler and his coadjutor have manhandled, squeezed, twisted, and debased these two splendid German words to the point of nausea, as only dilettantes can, casting the highest values of a nation before swine. They have sufficiently demonstrated in the ten years of destruction of all material and intellectual freedom, of all moral substance among the German people, what they understand by freedom and honor. The frightful bloodbath has opened the eyes of even the stupidest German - it is a slaughter which they arranged in the name of "freedom and honor of the German nation" throughout Europe, and which they daily start anew. The name of Germany is dishonored for all time if German youth does not finally rise, take revenge, and atone, smash its tormentors, and set up a new Europe of the spirit. Students! The German people look to us. As in 1813 the people expected us to shake off the Napoleonic yoke, so in 1943 they look to us to break the National Socialist terror through the power of the spirit. Beresina and Stalingrad are burning in the East. The dead of Stalingrad implore us to take action. "Up, up, my people, let smoke and flame be our sign!"
*
Our people stand ready to rebel against the Nationals Socialist enslavement of Europe in a fervent new breakthrough of freedom and honor.

I wish I could properly convey the feelings that I had watching it. I looked at her and wondered if I would be so brave. I looked at her and saw my little girl. I couldn't help but feel horrible about what Adolf Hitler did to the world, and what people did in his name.

I also suggest Downfall. Good movie about the last days in the bunker.

Entry for August 21, 2007

I read the following,

Homeschooling

During 12 years of public school, the most encouragement he received was when an algebra teacher who failed him cared enough to tell him why. Kevin said he graduated without basic skills such as working with fractions.

That went back to a time in History, 9th grade, I think. My first semester I received a D in the class. The second, I was working on an A. My teacher took me out to the hall and asked me what was going on, why did I improve so much. I responded that history just became interesting to me and my parents were helping me out.

Looking back at it, I think he was fishing for who I was cheating off. I remember his expression changed. I'm not sure if it was relief or disbelief. I do remember only a few teachers that gave positive reinforcement. However, I did get that in grades. By 12th though I figured that I could ace anything they gave me. Since all the college entrance tests were finished, and I was already accepted, I kind of let things slide. My grades didn't go down, but I took fewer classes and I had easier ones. I had by that time taken the hardest classes in the hard sciences that they offered anyway.

That didn't mean college was easy. Nope. 1 semester--bad. Got better later. My masters degree was actually pretty easy comparatively.

Entry for August 18, 2007

I found this site through a roundabout way.

http://www.dooce.com/about.html

What always makes me chuckle is how these completely disfunctional people somehow blame the church for their troubles, and never look beyond the fact that they are the ones messing up their lives.

I mean, I loved BYU. I had a great time. Lots of dating, met my wife, lots of education, beautiful scenery. No, I don't have any desire to live there again, but it was great while I was there. Perhaps I had a great time because I don't have a desire to drink, party, etc. If that is what you want to achieve, then that just isn't the place for you.

Last time I was there I sat in one of the buildings and looked up and saw the spot where I first said "I love you" to my then future wife. I remembered all the dates that I took to this building. I remembered all the wonderful things I learned there, how to think critically. Yes, you can do that at BYU. I even became more wary of government, contrary to popular belief.

I guess C. S. Lewis was right. Some will look back on their lives and see all the wonder, and some will look back and curse the day they were born.

Entry for August 05, 2007

I want to keep a section for blogging the Quran. I will post the links here and keep it updated.

I will keep them posted in the feeds section for the My Web application or via the tags at http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0SO5ijofLZGZn4BYjSbr8gF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlcmYxM3EyBHBvc...