Keewon wrote:What we need to do is ask: What would you expect to find scientifically if the BofM story were just made up? How would that look different from what you actually find?This is an important question, so let's explore it. If Joseph Smith made up the BoM, we would expect to see the same things that we see in other works of fiction:- No archeological, linguistic, anthropological, or biological evidence that the civilizations or events in the book existed.- Evidence that the origins of the book can be traced to the time and place where it was written.- The book will contain the biases and ideologies of its era and the prejudices of the author.- Errors in the first edition that are corrected in subsequent editions.- Possible borrowing from other authors, including borrowing the errors in the original sources.- The reception will be mixed: some people will like the book and others will be bored by it.- Etc. You know the rest of these.Additionally, what would we expect to see if someone did not have an ancient artifact (in this case, the gold plates) but wanted people to believe he had the artifact?- He would not let anyone see the artifact, and he would threaten anyone who tried to see the artifact with death.- He would conveniently rid himself of the artifact when it was no longer "needed"- Those who did see the artifact would not see it directly, but would see it through supernatural means.If the BoM was what it claims to be we would expect to see:- A mountain of evidence of all kinds that the BoM civilizations existed, and direct evidence could easily be identified for specific events in the BoM- A book that clearly came from a different era than the era in which it was written and that is utterly foreign in its biases, prejudices, and ideologies.- No (or very few) errors in the original edition- Since historians do not need to borrow from other works, there would be no borrowing- If God wants everyone to believe in the Book of Mormon, he would have brought about a situation where every reasonable person who read the book would believe in it.If JS had gold plates, we would expect that:- He would show the plates to people he trusted, and they would see the plates with their normal eyes- If God wants us to believe that JS translated the BoM, God could have left the plates in JS's hands so that the plates could be independently examined, which would show that JS's translation was correct, thus converting many people to the BoM.It looks to me like we see exactly what we would expect to see if JS made up the BoM and we do not see what we would expect to see if JS translated the BoM as he claimed. I'd say the evidence is pretty conclusive.
And there was also this earlier:
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29720&start=40
We can go around and around on this but my point is that there is no actual evidence of a historical BoM, tons of evidence against and plenty of excuses to try to patch the massive holes.
Here's a brief list of issues off the top of my head:-King James word-for-word transcriptions from 1769 edition, including errors-DNA evidence shows no connection between Amerinds and Hebrews-No non-LDS archaeologist has seen any correlation between artifacts and BoM-Olmec & Mayan cultures can be traced back to millennia before BoM-No evidence of Old World culture intrusion into New World-BoM Includes post-captivity Deutero-Isaiah (written after Lehi’s time)-Lehi’s dream same as Joseph Smith Sr.’s-New Testament language and quotes-Empty Americas in BoM - no mention of aborigines-Americas intentionally kept secret from all others:: 2 Nephi 1:8-Specifically names flora and fauna but fails to mention other (Asian-descended) people-The forged verses from the last chapter of Mark appear word-for-word in Mormon 9-B.H. Roberts analysis “pious but naive mind” & View of Hebrews parallels-No old world flora & fauna in Americas-No American flora and fauna in BoM (corn is exception)-Steel & other metallurgy - Amerinds in BoM times were stone age people-Jaredite steel predates the iron age.-People don’t develop metallurgy and then forget it-Viking/Nephite comparison-Roman/Nephite comparison-Names borrowed from extant sources (e.g. Cumorah & Moroni)-Many location names very similar to town names of Joseph’s surroundings-19th Century religion & contemporary concerns throughout BoM-Similarity of Sharem & Korihor despite intervening centuries-BoM teaches 19th Century Protestantism, not current LDS doctrine nor ancient doctrine-BoM teaches trinitarian Godhead, Joseph developed LDS Godhead later-2nd edition changes to move away from trinitarian Godhead-Literal fire and brimstone Hell-The Lemba tribe: an African parallel to BoM migration, but easily proven with DNA-JS never quoted or taught from the BoM-Dramatic differences between Harris’ and Anthon’s accounts of transcript-Languages identified by Anthon (in Harris’ account) didn’t exist in Lehi’s time-No one has ever been able to make sense of Anthon Transcript “caractors”-Apologist geography contradicts prophetic statements (hemispheric, location of Cumorah, etc.) right up to Comorah quotes by Hinkley-Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs and Steel demonstrates improbablility of BoM claims-Requires belief that there was no death before The Fall-Requires belief in a literal global flood-Jaredite story requires literal belief in Tower of Babel & confusion of languages-Witness descriptions of gold plates and urim & thummim are wildly inconsistent-Joseph Sr’s description of gold plates: ½ thick case with masonic symbols-None of the witness descriptions on the plates would fit in Alvin's writing box-Native American DNA traces to 40,000 year old human remains found in China-Number of phrases taken directly from 19th Century sources too numerous to list-Concepts and phrases lifted directly from John Bunyan-Stories of Indian writings on gold plates were common in Joseph’s environment-Stories of a white race destroyed by barbaric Indian race were common in Joseph's environment-War stories, tactics and phrases lifted from Revolutionary War and War of 1812 accounts-Australian aboriginal DNA analogy:-Clearly shows appearance of Asians 4200 years ago-Dogs and new weapon technology appear in Australia at same time as new DNALast edited by Hagoth on Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
