A Return to Logic: Blake T Ostler among Mormon Theologians

Rating:	★★★★
Category:	Other

While I didn't really pay attention to the presentor, I really liked Blake's response. He touches Heavenly Mother. He stated that Joseph Smith didn't mention or teach Heavenly Mother and that Eliza Snow "made it up". Whether he believes it, he didn't say.

This was just a good talk. I highly recommend it.

http://sunstonemagazine.com/audio/SL04225.mp3

Exploring Mormon Thought: The problems of Theism and the Love of God.

Rating:	★★★★
Category:	Books
Genre:	Religion & Spirituality
Author:	Blake Ostler

Exploring Mormon Thought: The Problems of Theism and the Love of God.

I wish I could have the patience to write all my feelings and thoughts about the book. Aside from the fact that much of this book went over my head, I think the series contains some of the most important essays and studies of mormon ideologies I have ever encountered. That isn’t to say that I necessarily agree with the author in all respects either.

The first book in the series took on the nature of God and showed how logically, the theology of “orthodox Christianity” is not supportable by scripture nor logic. This book takes on such things as the nature of sin, soteriology and grace. This book has some pretty strong chapter headings: “The Implausibility of Original Sin”, “Self-Deception and Justification by Faith” and “The Problem of Grace”. While I don’t pretend to understand all his arguments, it certainly has made me look at things differently.

My favorite chapters deal with original sin (“Guilt cannot be imputed.”) and the atonement (“Guilt cannot be imputed.”). I will only focus on a few of his arguments on the atonement and the simple refutation of traditional explanations.

Ransom Theory
This is based on being slaves to sin and in captivity to the Devil. Jesus paid the price to get us out of this situation. (1Cor 6:20 and Mark 10:45). “..it fell out of favor because it assumed that God had to resort to trickery to free sinners. Worse, it assumed that God could not simply overpower Satan any time he wanted to.” Pg 261

Satisfaction Theory
This is along the lines that God’s honor has been wronged and needs to be repaired.
“The demand to repair God’s honor seems to be a snobbish self-centeredness that reflects God’s concern for himself and total disregard for our interests and well-being…It assumes that one can amass superogatory moral merit so that one has more moral ‘cash’ than one needs for one’s self. However, moral virtue is not like a bank account that can be saved up and spent. And finally, the notion that God makes a demand to satisfy his honor by punishing the only person who fully honored him is contrary even to the feudal code of honor because it is dishonorable to punish an innocent person to obtain satisfaction.” Pg 263.

Moral Influence Theory
This is based on an error in satisfaction theory, that God can’t commune because of his wounded honor, when it is really our sin that is causing the problem. It is correct in as far as it goes but does not explain how Christ bears our sins nor why Christ’s suffering makes forgiveness possible. Pg 264.

Governmental Theory
LDS might know this as the laws of Justice and Mercy. This is more like a precursor to that theory. Laws are violated and Jesus satisfied the Law while showing mercy.

Penal Substitution Theory.
Developed primarily by John Calvin. God set up laws and he can’t forgive us because his laws must be obeyed. Ostler set up 5 main arguments against this position

1) The penal theory posits a conflict between Father and Son. A loving forgiving Son must persuade the Father to turn away his wrath.
2) The penal theory erroneously assumes that guilt, or righteousness, can be transferred. Innocents being punished for the guilty is not acceptable in any legal system.
3) The penal theory is unjust. This view assumes that the humans who deserve to be punished escape it while the only person in the history of the world who does not deserve punishment is punished in our place.
4) The penal theory limits God’s power to forgive. It fails to explain why we can forgive each other but somehow God is incapable of doing it himself.
5) The penal theory entails a legal fiction as the basis for our reconciliation. It entails that God in fact overlooks our sinfulness and instead regards us as righteous because Christ is—even though it is not true that we are in fact righteous.

He calls his theory of atonement as the Compassion Theory of Atonement. That sin is real in that it separates us from God, from developing a loving relationship with him. Christ’s atonement is His pain in forgiving us. His need or desire to reestablish that relationship and the pain he feels in doing that.

I’m not necessarily sold on this yet, but it is intriguing. I can’t even say that I even have the ability to defend it. I still think it is dangerous that he uses philosophy to defend his views, in that most LDS view that as the prime reason for the departure of early Christianity from the Gospel.

http://www.christiansonline.cc/forum/comparing-notes/3675-atonement.html

Just when you thought Christianity was right for you.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/885008,CST-NWS-stab09.article#

A Waukegan mother claimed her 6-year-old daughter attacked her with a butcher knife because the petite kindergartner was possessed by a demon, Lake County authorities said Tuesday.

Nelly Vazquez-Salazar insisted to investigators that she was defending herself when she fatally slashed and stabbed her 51-pound daughter, Evelyn, whom she had grown concerned about in recent months because the girl had started sleepwalking, authorities said. Bloody knife found

The 25-year-old single mother was charged Tuesday with first degree-murder in the death of her only child, who was found slain early Monday in the Waukegan apartment they shared.

The youngster's throat was slashed and she had been stabbed 10 other times, including three times in the face, Lake County prosecutors said. A religious picture lying on the floor next to the girl also had been punctured by a knife, authorities said in court as they detailed the slaying and ripped Vazquez-Salazar's claims of how it occurred.

"She [Vazquez-Salazar] claimed the little girl was possessed by a demon," Assistant State's Attorney Stephen Scheller said, describing the child differently.

"She was an intelligent, vibrant, beautiful little girl. She was, in fact, an angel," Scheller said.

Vazquez-Salazar wept softly throughout the bond hearing but didn't speak. Her bond was set at $5 million and she remained under a suicide watch late Tuesday in the Lake County Jail.

The bizarre slaying shook even veteran police officers and prosecutors.

"A killing like this affects the whole community," said Waukegan Police Chief William Biang. "You never want to see a vibrant, active 6-year-old taken like this."

The little girl was found slain about 4:40 a.m. Monday after Vazquez-Salazar went to a neighbor's apartment and told them she thought she had killed her daughter.

A bloody butcher knife was found next to the girl, as was a framed religious picture that included St. Joseph, Mary and Jesus Christ, Scheller said. The faces of all three figures had been stabbed, he said.

 

This after I watched a program on PBS about the Myan script and how the Catholic Priest had all the myans who could write put to death and every Myan text burned....wonderful. Considering I have adopted two children with this in their history....wonderful.

An incredibly good article

How Can Someone Who Lives in Insane Luxury Be a Star in Today's World?

As I begin to write this, I "slug" it, as we writers say, which means I put a heading on top of the document to identify it. This heading is one line: FINAL, and it gives me a shiver to write it. I have been doing this column for so long that I cannot even recall when I started. I loved writing this column so much for so long I came to believe it would never end. It worked well for a long time, but gradually, my changing as a person and the world's change have overtaken it.

On a small scale, Morton's, while better than ever, no longer attracts as many stars as it used to. It still brings in the rich people in droves and definitely some stars. I saw Samuel L. Jackson there a few days ago, and we had a nice visit, and right before that, I saw and had a splendid talk with Warren Beatty in an elevator, in which we agreed that Splendor in the Grass was a super movie. But Morton's is not the star galaxy it once was, though it probably will be again.

Beyond that, a bigger change has happened. I no longer think Hollywood stars are terribly important. They are uniformly pleasant, friendly people, and they treat me better than I deserve to be treated. But a man or woman who makes a huge wage for memorizing lines and reciting them in front of a camera is no longer my idea of a shining star we should all look up to.

How can a man or woman who makes an eight-figure wage and lives in insane luxury really be a star in today's world, if by a "star" we mean someone bright and powerful and attractive as a role model? Real stars are not riding around in the backs of limousines or in Porsches or getting trained in yoga or Pilates and eating only raw fruit while they have Vietnamese girls do their nails.

They can be interesting, nice people, but they are not heroes to me any longer.

A real star is the soldier of the 4th Infantry Division who poked his head into a hole on a farm near Tikrit, Iraq. He could have been met by a bomb or a hail of AK-47 bullets. Instead, he faced an abject Saddam Hussein and the gratitude of all of the decent people of the world. A real star is the U.S. soldier who was sent to disarm a bomb next to a road north of Baghdad. He approached it, and the bomb went off and killed him. A real star, the kind who haunts my memory night and day, is the U.S. soldier in Baghdad who saw a little girl playing with a piece of unexploded ordnance on a street near where he was guarding a station. He pushed her aside and threw himself on it just as it exploded. He left a family desolate in California and a little girl alive in Baghdad.

The stars who deserve media attention are not the ones who have lavish weddings on TV but the ones who patrol the streets of Mosul even after two of their buddies were murdered and their bodies battered and stripped for the sin of trying to protect Iraqis from terrorists. We put couples with incomes of $100 million a year on the covers of our magazines. The noncoms and officers who barely scrape by on military pay but stand on guard in Afghanistan and Iraq and on ships and in submarines and near the Arctic Circle are anonymous as they live and die.

I am no longer comfortable being a part of the system that has such poor values, and I do not want to perpetuate those values by pretending that who is eating at Morton's is a big subject. There are plenty of other stars in the American firmament .... the policemen and women who go off on patrol in South Central and have no idea if they will return alive, The orderlies and paramedics who bring in people who have been in terrible accidents and prepare them for surgery, the teachers and nurses who throw their whole spirits into caring for autistic children, the kind men and women who work in hospices and in cancer wards. Think of each and every fireman who was running up the stairs at the World Trade Center as the towers began to collapse.

Now you have my idea of a real hero. We are not responsible for the operation of the universe, and what happens to us is not terribly important. God is real, not a fiction, and when we turn over our lives to Him, he takes far better care of us than we could ever do for ourselves. In a word, we make ourselves sane when we fire ourselves as the directors of the movie of our lives and turn the power over to Him. I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters. This is my highest and best use as a human.

I can put it another way. Years ago, I realized I could never be as great an actor as Olivier or as good a comic as Steve Martin .... or Martin Mull or Fred Willard -- or as good an economist as Samuelson or Friedman or as good a writer as Fitzgerald. Or even remotely close to any of them. But I could be a devoted father to my son, husband to my wife and, above all, a good son to the parents who had done so much for me. This came to be my main task in life. I did it moderately well with my son, pretty well with my wife and well indeed with my parents (with my sister's help). I cared for and paid attention to them in their declining years. I stayed with my father as he got sick, went into extremis and then into a coma and then entered immortality with my sister and me reading him the Psalms.

This was the only point at which my life touched the lives of the soldiers in Iraq or the firefighters in New York. I came to realize that life lived to help others is the only one that matters and that it is my duty, in return for the lavish life God has devolved upon me, to help others He has placed in my path. This is my highest and best use as a human.

What is Scientology

Rating:	★
Category:	Books
Genre:	Religion & Spirituality
Author:	L. Ron Hubbard

Well, I finally read a few scientology books. One was Scientology, The Fundimentals of Thought. The other was the large tome called, What is Scientology. I wish I could offer some in-depth review but I found the fundimentals of the religion totally incomprehensible. Perhaps I am so twisted that my Thetans can't think properly, but I just can't buy it.

That isn't saying that I wouldn't mind investigating a bit more, but I don't want to fork over any $$.

http://www.xenu.net for more interesting readings.

A little bit of an update.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07m-IvvpK2E

Scientology

I've been trying to cram some scientology under my belt. It is more curiosity than anything else. One of the forwards stated this. "The E-Meter by itself, does nothing. It is a religious artifact..." I found that kind of a bold statement. I wonder if that is from some of their lawsuits in the past.

I can say that I'm not that impressed so far. I found L. Ron Hubbard to be a fair to poor author and he seems to have carried that on to a religion.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,972865,00.html

Blake Ostler - A Response To Mormon Neo-Othdodoxy

Rating:	★★★★
Category:	Other

http://sunstonemagazine.com/audio/SL89065.mp3

Blake is the second speaker and most interesting of the three. The part I found most interesting is that I was given a concrete reason why LDS use the term "transgression" when referring to the fall of Adam. He also stated why he doesn't believe in Original Sin. First and foremost is that it wasn't a sin. In order to sin, you have to have a knowledge of Good and Evil, which was lacking and really the point of the myth. Adam didn't know Good or Evil, and hence, could not sin. I know that the BoM could be read that way but I never thought it in such simple terms before. He does spell out other reasons why "Original Sin" can't exist, and even in his latest book, does it exaustively. I still like that little snippet though.

http://www.defensorveritatis.net/?p=860

http://www.defensorveritatis.net/?p=860
An absolutely WONDERFUL discussion on deification.

Catholic Parish wants LDS missionaries charged.

All I can say is, "Jerks."

Deseret Morning News | Parish angered by 3 LDS missionaries

Quote:

Parish angered by 3 LDS missionaries Associated Press Published: March 10, 2008 SAN LUIS, Colo. — Members of the Sangre de Christo parish of the Roman Catholic Church voted Sunday to pursue criminal charges against three Mormon missionaries who allegedly vandalized a shrine and committed sacrilegious acts in the church. Although the incidents occurred in 2006, they only came to the attention of the parish when they were seen on the Internet site "Photobucket." Alonzo Payne, a parishioner and lawyer, said he was asking the Costilla County Sheriff to pursue charges on behalf of the parish. Sheriff's Cpl. Scott Powell told the Pueblo Chieftain the men, who were not identified, could face up to six charges, including felonies for criminal mischief and conspiracy. Robert Fotheringham, in charge of the LDS Church's missionary program in parts of four states, and whose region includes the San Luis Valley, declined to release names of the missionaries. He confirmed the three seen in the photos, which have been removed from the Internet, were Mormon missionaries. He said they would be disciplined, though he declined to go into detail. "We're just mortified this has happened. This is not what we're about," he said. The Internet photos showed the three vandalizing the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs in 2006 and mocking the Roman Catholic faith. One missionary was seen holding the severed head of a statue. The head was found and restored. Another photo showed a missionary appearing to preach from the Book of Mormon inside the Chapel of All Saints. A third showed one missionary pretending to sacrifice another on the altar at the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs. Members of the parish built the shrine. No damage estimate was available. "What they did was extremely imprudent, extremely uncharitable and inflammatory," the Rev. Pat Valdez told parishioners at a meeting Friday night. "You have worked hard, and this whole community has worked hard to build that shrine as an expression of our faith." Fotheringham, meanwhile, met with parishioners to deliver a written apology from one of the three missionaries, signed by an R. Thompson. "I realize that my companions and I have made a mockery of that which is most sacred to many of the residents of San Luis and the rest of the world. I should have known better because I have seen many of the same types of blasphemies made against my own church and I have been appalled," the statement said.     Some Followup: LDS Church apologizes to Catholics Missionaries may face legal, church sanctions Deseret Morning News and Associated Press Published: March 11, 2008 The LDS Church issued a strongly worded statement Monday apologizing to the Roman Catholic Church for the actions of some of its missionaries in Colorado. "Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were dismayed this weekend to learn of the insensitivity and disrespect shown to religious artifacts of the Sangre de Cristo Catholic Church in San Luis, Colorado, and that Latter-day Saint missionaries were evidently responsible during their missionary service in 2006," said Bruce Olsen, managing director of the church's public affairs department. "Their actions do not represent the high standards of behavior for which our missionaries are known all over the world." Photos that had been posted on the Internet showed three LDS missionaries mocking a Catholic shrine and holding the broken head of a statue of a saint there, a Catholic official said. Costilla County Sheriff Gilbert Martinez said deputies on Monday were beginning to investigate whether the men vandalized the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs at the Chapel of All Saints, which stands on a butte overlooking San Luis. The photos show young men holding the broken head of a statue, preaching from the Book of Mormon at an altar and pretending to sacrifice one another. The vandalism apparently occurred in 2006, though damage to the statue went unnoticed until last week, when a parish member saw the photos on the picture-sharing Internet site Photobucket. They have since been taken down. Olsen said the LDS Church has initiated a "thorough investigation" of the incident and has arranged for a meeting with Catholic leaders to offer apologies. "We are providing the names of those involved to law enforcement officials and will continue to cooperate fully with those investigating the incident as well as with officials of the Roman Catholic Church. Those missionaries who have since returned home will face disciplinary action from the church," the statement read. "The missionary who was still serving in Colorado has also been disciplined and his mission terminated." "The community is sad; it feels they've been victimized," Sangre de Cristo Parish Council spokesman Alonzo Payne said Monday. The parish has nine churches and about 450 families across Costilla County. The damaged statue seen in one of the photos depicts Manuel Morales, who was the 28-year-old president of Mexico's National League for the Defense of Religious Liberty when he was executed in 1926 for refusing to recognize laws he considered anti-religion. He was among more than two dozen Mexican saints canonized in 2000. The broken head had gone unnoticed because it had been placed back on the statue. The parish council, based near the New Mexico border in San Luis, voted Sunday to ask for the investigation. The sheriff said charges could include desecration of a venerated object, criminal trespass, defacing property and bias-motivated crime. Payne would not rule out a lawsuit seeking the cost of replacing or repairing the statue. The Rev. Patrick Valdez, the parish pastor, referred questions to Payne. Olsen called the missionaries' actions "inexcusable" and said respect for other faiths is a "cardinal tenet" of the LDS Church. "The church has worked for many years side by side with leaders and members of other faiths, including the Roman Catholic Church, and has often helped them with construction or renovation of buildings for religious worship. We have also worked hand-in-hand with Catholic Charities in providing humanitarian assistance to alleviate suffering across the globe," he said. "The church expresses its profound regret and sincere apologies to the members of the Roman Catholic faith, to the members of the Sangre de Cristo Catholic Church and the townspeople of San Luis, for this senseless act." Olsen said church leaders would look for ways to repair the damage that has been caused to relationships with the community. Photobucket released a statement saying that it had no record of the shrine photos but that its rules forbid content that is illegal, obscene or threatening. © 2008 Deseret News Publishing Company | All rights reserved

Kirby: You're called by God, but still an idiot

Robert Kirby
Tribune columnist
Article Last Updated: 03/14/2008 09:35:40 PM MDT


Years ago, my roommates and I got into a water fight with a bunch of kids. The day was brain-damage hot. Getting soaked was a refreshing break from the drudgery of our work.
The fight started innocently enough. The kids knocked on the door of our apartment and squirted us. It became an immediate arms race: squirt guns, then cups, on to jugs, from there to hoses, and finally total annihilation.
Going for the big win, my roommates and I hauled a garbage can onto the roof filled with the most noxious stuff we could find: spoiled milk, syrup, laundry detergent, rotting vegetables, dead rat, moldy flour, etc.
It took three of us to lug it to the edge of the roof. To avoid being spotted from below, we guessed where the kids were and upended the garbage can.
We missed the kids and hit some lady walking her dog. The deluge of muck knocked her flat and almost drowned her dog.
A number of things were terribly wrong with this incident, not the least of which was that the poor woman didn't deserve it.
Also, my roommates and I were LDS missionaries, personal representatives of Jesus Christ. Nothing we had been taught indicated that the Savior endorsed knocking down old ladies with buckets of swill.
The woman was in no mood for an apology. When we tried to help, she shook us off and shrieked for everyone to come and see what the awful Mormons had done to her.
Half of the ensuing crowd was sympathetic to her plight, the other half found it hysterically funny. The laughter made her all the madder.
We prepared ourselves for a long stretch in a South American jail but the cops never came. We still had to live it down, though. For weeks, people in the town scolded or congratulated us for what we'd done.
I'd like to say this is the only untoward public stunt of my entire mission. It isn't.
During my mission we had elders thrown in jail for blithely taking pictures of military installations.
Some got arrested for saying things about the government they shouldn't have. One hit a nun in the head with a football. Another killed a family's chicken with a karate chop. A couple got shot when they ran an army roadblock in the dark.
So, it doesn't surprise me that three LDS missionaries are in trouble in Colorado now for a juvenile prank that violated a Catholic shrine. What surprises me is that it doesn't happen more often. We are, after all, talking about kids.
I was 19 once myself. I helped raise three 19-year-olds. I know that being 19 makes a person only slightly smarter than a hound dog. The human brain doesn't even stop developing until 25.
Going on a mission doesn't change any of that. You may be called by God, but you're still an idiot. The only difference is a huge increase in the responsibility, so you have to let it show as little as possible.
I'm not saying that the missionaries in Colorado shouldn't be in trouble, or that they shouldn't have to take their lumps. For people like me, that's actually the fastest way to become smarter.
I do think we should look on the bright side though. With 50,000-plus kids serving missions in some pretty scary places, it's a miracle that international incidents aren't daily occurrences.
rkirby@sltrib.com

LDS depression, or What is bad journalism

When you see the above picture, what exactly are your thoughts? In the LDS context, this is meant to imply that being a member of the church causes depression. The story in question is to be found at http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4403731&page=1 and how I found out about it was at http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?s=cdeffbb640a393d1701b5c484efe6b81&showtopic=33649.

Quote:
The still waters of the Great Salt Lake run deep -- and dark.

Take Wendy, a 40-year-old teacher and mother of three from Utah County. To all appearances, she led the perfect life. Just as she was expected to, she went from high school cheerleader to Mormon missionary to wife and mother.

"But life has a funny way of not being perfect," she said. "Three years into my marriage my husband was drinking, using drugs and stepping out on me. "

I don't see how there are dark waters in Salt Lake other than it implies that there is something to hide. I also don't see why it is implied that the church must somehow ensure the happiness of this person. Are they saying that because she was a missionary, she married a loser? Does the church encourage drinking, drug use and adultery?

"I knew I was depressed and needed help, but there is a stigma about depression in this area," said Wendy, who asked that ABCNEWS.com not use her last name. "People think it's a sign of weakness. It means you're not capable of being a good mother or wife or teacher."

Wendy's secret is Utah's secret. The postcard image of Utah is a state of gleaming cities, majestic mountains and persistently smiling people. But new research shows a very different picture of the state, a snapshot of suicide and widespread depression.

I think there are other contributing factors. First, if there is a stigma, it is not the church's making. Many of the Relief Society meetings have the women talking about how to cope with the pressures of the world, pressures that everyone has to deal with, regardless of religion. I don't know many women who chase after perfection. Most are trying to cope, just like my wife. BTW, my wife works for LDS Family Services. It is a function of the church and is available to every member, most of the time free of charge. I used it while attending school there because of a relationship I was in. I certainly didn't blame it on the church but because of some choices I made.

Also, Utah has a large teen population. I don't know if you were ever a teen, but that isn't a great time.

The LDS do not use alcohol. So the self-medication that is common in other parts of the country doesn't happen there. Would you want them to start boozing it up instead of going to a doctor?

At the end of the article we finally read this

"I don't think it's clear that there's a crisis in Utah," said Brent Scharman, a psychologist and the assistant commissioner of LDS Family Services, a church network that provides counseling. "You've got one camp that says there is more depression and another camp that says we just have more consumers." Scharman said studies on organized religion and depression found that religious people were generally happier than nonreligious people, and that held true for Mormons.

So, after all this, it isn't the church's fault. Mormons are happier.

"It always boils down to the issue of what influence the LDS lifestyle has on the depression phenomenon," he said. "Non-LDS and some LDS people say this is a kind of driven lifestyle and that we push too hard and smile too much. But studies show, and those living it out see, that religion is good support. It creates a positive network and helps people get through crises and deal with long-term problems.

"Are there people who feel 'I'm not living up to the LDS ideal,' or 'I'm not living up to my family's expectations'? Absolutely, there is no question. But having done counseling outside the LDS community, I saw people there, too, who were depressed because of perfectionism," he said. "I wouldn't say it is any worse here than in more diverse communities."

This article was horrible journalism.

For another response, go here. http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_archive_116a_web.jpg

The Rise of the Papacy

Rating:	★★★★
Category:	Books
Genre:	Religion & Spirituality
Author:	Robert B Eno

While this is a very complex topic which even the author claims that is incomplete, I found this a very interesting read. It doesn't come out and say that the papacy flat out didn't exist in the early church, but it strongly suggests it.

1) Rome did not have a single bishop.
This is from some interpolation and other sources that suggest that there wasn't a "bishopric" as we now know the term, but ruling elders. This cooresponds with some NT contexts.

"...(Ignatius) does not greet a bishop in Rome nor does he ever mention such a person in this letter. One might object that Ignatius had never been in Rome, he did not know the bishop's name. He could have spoken to or of a bishop even if he had not known his name....But we have only his silence, which leads many to conclude that Ignatius did not address such a person because the roman community of the time had no such leader."

He leads into this by suggesting that the first three "popes" of rome were actually a group of elders that lead the church and this would explain some of Clements other comments.

Page 28
"In general, neither Clement nor anyone else appears in a position anything like that of the bishop as described by Ignatius. "

Page 29
"This evidence (Clement, Hermas, Ignatius) points us in the direction of assuming that in the first century to the second, there was no bishop of Rome in the usual sense given that title. ... If there was no bishop of Rome, in what sense can one speak of a Petrine succession."

2) No knowledge of succession by other bishops at the time.
In a response to Stephen's attention to African practice, Firmilian mentioned.

Page 63.
"He remarked, for instance, that Stephen's unkindness had at least the result of bringing Cyprian and himself together. Stephen is "bold and insolent", "manifestly stupid", "a disgrace to Peter and Paul", with a "slippery, fickle and uncertain mind".

"He who so glories in the place of his episcopate and contends that he has the succession of Peter on whom the foundation of the Church was established, should introduce many other rocks and constitute new buildings of many churches while he maintains by his authority that baptism is there."

"This is the first known appeal of a roman bishop to Peter's authority, indeed to the classical Petrine Gospel texts. But we must note as well that Firmilian not only does not accept the claim, he seems never to have heard of it before. He notes for example that in many liturgical customes, Rome differs from Jerusalem. There are variations from one church to another, "and yet, on account of this, there has been no withdrawal at all from the peace and unity of the Catholic Church". "How can you live in communion with such a person?" Rome insists on uniformity but other bishops, such as Irenaeus and Firmilian, not that all have gotten well up until now with varying customs."

Page 65
"His own opening remarks sum up his views on this question of a world leadership for the Church:

"For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops nor by tyrannical terror force his colleagues to a necessity of obeying; inasmuch as every bishop, in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgement, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another.
But we must all await the judgement of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone has the power both of setting us in the government of his Church, and of judging of our acts therein."

In conclusion, the author seems to state that the papacy is a development, not something that Peter even contemplated, as the source of this development was in the mid 300s.

I found the book interesting as it covered a lot of characters and strong willed individuals. His comment about Newman was interesting in that he thinks Newman did not set well with the papacy once he was under their control. I'll have to look that up.


BTW, while leaving my library, I noticed a new book. "Electing Our Bishops". In the minute I gave the book, it mentioned in detail how election of the bishops took place in the early church. Not unlike the LDS system, I suppose. Anyway, it might be something to check out.

http://www.amazon.com/Electing-Our-Bishops-Catholic-Leaders/dp/0742558207/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204928818&sr=8-1

MormonTimes - homepage

http://www.mormontimes.com/
Deseret news is trying to get a bit more money out of their content, it appears. And Orson Scott Card once again is selling himself out. That man is everywhere on the LDS net.

People stopped buying the Church News I guess. I stopped long ago.

"Book of Mormon Historicity: Implications of the Various Views." -- Blake Ostler

Rating:	★★★
Category:	Other

http://sunstonemagazine.com/audio/SL86001.mp3
Ostler, Blake T. (as panelist), and others. "Book of Mormon Historicity: Implications of the Various Views." Sunstone Salt Lake Symposium [Audio Recording: August 20, 1986]. Available from http://sunstonemagazine.com/audio/SL86001.mp3; Internet; accessed January 17, 2008.

I am not one to work too much with the Book of Mormon. I doesn't hit me as much as other works of JS. This recording seems to wander around but it does offer some insight into Mr. Ostler. He is quite opinionated and doesn't seem to suffer fools very well. He is a believer though, and many of his critics at Sunstone aren't...which makes me kind of wonder about their sanity.

Then again, I'm not Hindu and I still like to read about it.

Noble Qur'an

Rating:	★★
Category:	Books
Genre:	Religion & Spirituality
Author:	?

http://www.islamhouse.com/d/files/en/ih_books/signal/en_Translation_of_the_Meanings_Quran.pdf

This book was the first version of the Qur'an that I have received. It was sent to me by the King Fahd society. It is interesting to note that post 9/11, they no longer sent out this book but a smaller translation by Ali that was without commentary. I know I didn't get too far into this book before I just became angry and frustrated. It should be noted that the download above is around 30MB.

Amboy_IL

Here's the plaque that announces the creation of the RLDS church. It is posted on the side of one of the 7 bars on the street...and the street isn't very long.

Pictures from a gold mine.

These are pumping stations the pump the cyanide to the piles.

From a gold mine.

'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

I liked this article because it humorous. Not that I necessarily subscribe to how either side is presenting itself. The comments were kind of funny too.

 

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695256840,00.html

 

Published: February 28, 2008

On Saturday, I spent a couple of hours chatting with a friend who runs an evangelical bookstore. He set the shop up in the heart of Mormon country and has kept at it for 30 years.

"I have to say, I admire your devotion," I tell him.

"I never take credit for personal virtue," he says. "That's you guys."

It's the way things are between us. We don't play a lot of slap and tickle. We know where we stand.

Evangelical faith comes out as confidence and boldness, which Mormons often see as brazen.

Mormon faith comes out as obedience, which evangelicals often see as smug.

"But you do see yourself as a sinner," I say.

"Yes."

"Well," I say, "among your many sins, I don't see 'lack of devotion."'

He smiles.

I don't mind playing to type.

He says he likes talking with me because I'm an "old returned missionary." The new returned missionaries, he says, speak in the same earnest voice and say the same things in the same way.

The comment strikes me as curious. I've never seen evangelicals as a colorful bouquet of religious style and thought.

He says he can size people with one question: "Are you a good person?" If they say "yes" or "I try to be," they haven't been saved. True Christians, he says, see themselves as sinners, washed in the blood of Jesus.

True Christians, I think to myself, behave like true Christians.

I suppose it's why our faiths are natural rivals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sends thousands into the world to show people they can live better lives. Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do. Yes, they see Mormonism as a cult because we stress behavior. But they also see Catholicism as a cult, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, large swaths of the Episcopal Church, Muslims, most Quakers and probably Jews. In fact, the only reason I can see for Mormons to be so concerned about being accepted by evangelicals is politics. Evangelicals control the right wing of the Republican Party. If druids controlled the Republican right, political Mormons would look for ways to bond with their druid brethren.

"Your good works aren't bad works," my friend is saying. "They're just dead works. Meaningless."

"The Jesus I believe in would find that a bit harsh," I say.

He opens his Bible to let me know my Jesus isn't Paul's Jesus.

I tell him my Jesus shows up in the gospels.

We're like two old men playing checkers in the park. We know each other's moves. We just play the game out for company.

I tell him I have to go.

He says he'll pray for me. He sees me getting older and fears I soon may be beyond rescue.

I leave, knowing what I've always known. True believers can be civil to each other, they can even join hands. But they can never join hearts. That's just a pipe dream of people who don't know true believers.

Wringing your hands over being accepted by other religions is a waste of a good pair of hands. Better to use them to hold to your ideals. Let the Founder sort it all out.

Unlike politics, in Christianity, his vote is the only one that counts, anyway.

---

Jerry Johnston is a Deseret Morning News staff writer. "New Harmony" appears weekly in the Mormon Times section.

---

E-mail: jerjohn@desnews.com

Blake Ostler - Mormon Finitism and Absolutist Preconceptions & The Adequate Object of Religious Worship

Rating:	★★★
Category:	Other

From http://www.blakeostler.com/complete_works.html and http://sunstonemagazine.com/audio/SL82019.mp3

An interesting talk on how we deal with God, like asking for things in prayer, and how this conflicts with "traditional" theology. It specifically addresses things like omnipotence is really impossible under current logic and philosophy.

Great techie site

http://www.geekologie.com/
I love this site, and I must say that the sister sites, thesuperficial.com and Iwatchstuff.com are also entertaining.

Jihad Watch: Blogging the Qur'an

http://www.jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php
There's no reason for me to continue posting the links, when someone else does it for me.