Which Way Do Men Face

I was recently reading a thread on NewOrderMormon,
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29014
I really like the following post by Inquiring Mind.

Starburst Queen wrote:

Men leaving the church (or becoming disaffected) more than women:

This is something that has never made sense to me. Maybe it is because polygamy is one of my "big" issues. It's hard for me to understand why there aren't more women leaving due to the imbalance of power, leadership opportunities, and other assorted "benefits" -- available to men only in the church.

I've wondered this myself. If the Church offers a better deal to men than it does to women, why do more men leave? I think there are answers. First, women are, on average, more religious than men: women are more likely than men to believe in God, to pray daily, and to attend church (according to research done by the Pew Research Center.)

Second, it would seem to me (as a male citizen-psychologist) that the social and emotional support network that the Church offers to women, and the teaching of moral values to children that the Church offers, are more important than doctrinal and historical problems to women who value the social and moral support network. I would speculate that the security of belonging to a community and the security of a belief in an afterlife are more important to many women than whether or not JS's translation of the BoA matches the Egyptologists' version. A large portion of women are feminist in their views and the patriarchy bothers them, but a large portion also aren't feminists and don't mind the patriarchy.

Third, I've also heard that religions that tend to be somewhat oppressive to women (like Islam) are more likely to have women stay in the religion because the women have invested more and sacrificed more.

If I was bigot making broad generalizations, I'd say that men tend to be more logical on average than women, and as such, logical problems in the Church would bother men more than women. Since the primary appeal of Mormonism seems to be emotional rather than logical, it makes sense that people who were more emotionally-oriented would be more likely to join and stay, which is why we see a lot of crying at the pulpit during meetings and so few scientists among the GAs.

On the polygamy issue, I don't think that most men are too bothered by it in principle (because humans are naturally polygynous according to evolutionary psychologists,) but we are bothered by the dishonesty surrounding polygamy and the polyandry.

I've read several of the posts on FacesEast.org and they are indeed heartbreaking. Most of them say essentially the same thing: "My husband told me that he doesn't believe in the Church anymore and isn't sure if he believes in God. I feel betrayed, confused, and angry." The feelings of betrayal indicate to me that religion is less about God than it is about human relationships, and the feelings of betrayal indicate to me these women's primary attachment to the Church is social, not doctrinal.

The fact that many of the women on FacesEast.org seem unwilling to consider the information that lead to their husband's disaffection shows me that, for these women, the sense of community they get from the Church and the feelings of security they get from the beliefs are more important than whether or not the Church is literally true.

Starburst Queen, I'd also say that men are subject to the same fallacies of logic in an effort to maintain the feelings of security and community. I went through the same process and I'm willing to admit that the social aspect of Church and the security of the belief in an afterlife were big reasons why it took some time to finally face the facts. I liked how easy it was to meet girls at ward activities and I still don't know how I'm going to meet girls outside the Church. I liked the idea that I'd get my own planet or galaxy after I died, and giving that up was hard. It was only in the face of overwhelming evidence that I was finally able to consider the facts.

 

Feminism #1

I found this on a message board, New Order Mormon

I recognize that some of these issues are church wide, some local, and some unchangeable. Some of them are simple and some of them are deeply ingrained. All of them, nevertheless, make me feel unequal and are worth talking about.

I feel unequal when there are more (a lot more) men’s voices in religious texts, meetings, leadership positions, and decision making bodies.

I feel unequal when callings that don’t necessitate the priesthood are given only to men: Sunday School Presidency, BYU, BYU-I and BYU-Hawaii Presidents, Church Education Commissioners, Ward Mission Leaders, recommend takers at the Temple, etc. (Similarly, men are not currently called in Primary Presidencies and could be.)

I feel unequal when women doing the same job are called by different titles (i.e. Sister vs. President) and/or are accessories to rather than serving equally with their husbands, i.e. Mission President’s wives.

I feel unequal when I have a calling as an auxiliary leader and have to get approval of every decision by men and/or when I am not invited to attend Priesthood Executive Committee meetings (PEC) which directly influence my stewardships.

I feel unequal when my value is primarily linked to being a wife and mother rather than by being a child of God.

I feel unequal when the men in my life acknowledge that they have no female spiritual leaders in their wards or communities.

I feel unequal when women have less prominent, prestigious, and public roles in the church, even before and after childrearing years.

I feel unequal because even one of the most inherently female-dominated time periods, having a new baby, is publically displayed at church in an all male ritual of the baby blessing.

I feel unequal when males handle 100% of the church finances.

I feel unequal when I am taught at church that my husband presides in my family, he is the head, and all things being equal, he has the final say.

I feel unequal when people preach that men and women are completely equal and in the same breath say the above sentence.

I feel unequal when I realize that at church all men have the final say. Good leaders might consult with female auxiliary leaders, but ultimately even after being called to a position via inspiration, men still make the final decisions.

I feel unequal when cub scouts and boy scouts have a larger budget (they are allowed to do fundraising- although this might be a local issue) than achievement days and Young Womens and thus, they often have better activities.

I feel unequal when the Young Women and Young Men’s programs have such different manuals, budgets, activities, etc.

I feel unequal when fathers and mothers are encouraged to fulfill primary roles to provide and nurture, but only the fathers are given the freedom to seek out the best way for them to provide, whereas, mothers are told the best way for them to nurture—to be stay at home moms.

I feel unequal when men teach me that being a stay at home mother is the most important thing a person could do, and yet most of them do not do it.

I feel unequal when people do not emphasize fatherhood as much as they do motherhood and when we have numerous annual lessons on the priesthood and I’m not taught anything about the woman’s role as a priestess.

I feel unequal in primary when most of the lessons and songs are about men although most of the teachers and leaders are women.

I feel unequal because church disciplinary courts are made up of solely men and there are no female voices in the very sensitive matters of church discipline.

I feel unequal when women have to talk to men about their sins, especially sexual ones, and have no other church sanctioned options.

I feel unequal because most men, even inspired ones, can’t fully understand or provide enough resources for sexual abuse.

I feel unequal when young girls are taught about modesty and chastity from older men, especially because females make decisions about these things for very different reasons than males.

I feel unequal because many of the official church declarations and proclamations have no female input, regardless of how drastically they affect women.

I feel unequal when there are no checks and balances for females who experience abuse in the system. While abuse may be rare, it is terrifying that women have no resources to go to outside of the male hierarchy.

I feel unequal because the Relief Society’s autonomy was taken away and it became an auxillery presided over by men.

I feel unequal when women’s financial autonomy isn’t encouraged as much as men’s at church and/or church schools.

I feel unequal because men conduct, men preach, men speak. Men teach us how to be women.

I feel unequal because local leaders rarely use gender inclusive language even though church manuals and General Conference talks try to do so.

I feel unequal when men speak at Relief Society and Young Women’s meetings, but women never speak in priesthood meetings.

I feel unequal when there are very few women’s voices in our official correlated church manuals.

I feel unequal when women don’t pray in General Conference and usually only give 2 or 3 of the many talks.

I feel unequal because men and women can be sealed to different numbers of people.

I feel unequal in the temple because women a have different script and role.

"edited to fit the post, please go to the link above to read the entire article"

I really liked the post. It seems that this is making the rounds also.

Drive By #1

I found this on a message board.  I wanted to keep it for reference.
MDD thread

sock puppet wrote:For me, they have mattered and dispelled my LDS belief (and participation). For me, history matters, particularly in regards to an organization making such audacious claims of sole authority from god.

I am interested in hearing from believers why these facts don't matter.

I'm not a believer, but I'd like to chime in here. To me, the historical criticisms themselves don't mean the church isn't true. The church isn't not true because Joseph Smith had sex with all those women, or because the Book of Abraham isn't what you get when you translate the papyrus Abraham supposedly wrote on by his own hand.

To me, the church isn't true because God never appeared to Joseph, never charged Joseph with "restoring" his church on Earth, never inspired him with the power to translate words written in Hebrew but represented on leaves of beaten gold using reformed Egyptian characters, which words represented the history of ancient Jews who migrated to the Americas, etc.

The church isn't true because its founding was entirely human-directed and human-performed, and was done with no more "authority" than that of human beings exercising their 1st Amendment rights to make up their own religion and believe in it.

All the historical things are not, themselves, the disqualifiers. They are evidence which backs up the assertions I made previously.

So the question in my mind is: is God acting through Joseph Smith as Prophet consistent with Joseph's sexual shenanigans? I believe it is not.

Is the Book of Abraham reality more consistent with A) Joseph Smith inventing tales of Godly authorization and power, or B) God preserving the words penned by Abraham so we could benefit from them in our day? I believe the evidence leans strongly (as in, way past the point of falling over) toward A).

If a man claims that an angel appeared to him and delivered up records inscribed on beaten-gold leaves in an ancient tongue, but then produces a "translation" of those records which appears to be of strictly modern origin, or which claims to represent ancient people but it looks like these people never existed, may I reasonably take this as evidence that the man was making things up?

It is my personal judgment that the historical record overwhelmingly supports the hypothesis that Joseph Smith never received any divine commission from the Creator of the Universe to lead the rest of us. He almost certainly made that up. His claimed powers of translation of ancient languages were all a sham, at least if the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are taken seriously as evidence of Joseph using these powers.

The LDS church is not true because it never was true. It wasn't true the very minute it was founded in 1830, and has never been true for even a single second since then. It didn't start out true and then "fall" from being true because Joseph Smith f****d a few dozen other women and girls. It didn't start out true but become false because Joseph Smith invented the Book of Abraham, falsely claiming it came from the papyrus of Michael Chandler. It was never true to begin with. All this other stuff merely serves to support that assessment.

No Philosophy Consoles Me

Rush is my favorite band and the main lyricist, Neil Peart, is an atheist or perhaps more of a humanist. Well, they recently released "Clockwork Angels" which is really a long expose on his religious beliefs. I think it came out at the right time for me for I see so much in it for me.

Bu2B2

I was brought up to believe
Belief has failed me now
The bright glow of optimism
Abandoned me somehow

Belief has failed me now
Life goes from bad to worse
No philosophy consoles me
In a clockwork universe

Life goes from bad to worse
I still choose to live
Find a measure of love and laughter
And another measure to give

I still choose to live
And give, even while I grieve
Though the balance tilts against me
I was brought up to believe

While Neil has had more challenges in his life on a personal level than I have, I can empathize with much of what he writes now.

It is an exceptional album. I enjoy it more and more with each listen.